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Bootstrapped to booming with Tuple’s Ben Orenstein

Episode #

23

Ben is the CEO and co-founder of Tuple (the best pair programming app for remote teams). He is also the host of one of my favorite podcasts the Art of Product, a former Thoughtbotter and the creator of several educational products for Rails developers. We talked about.

  • Ben's journey building and growing Tuple
  • Keeping your finger on the pulse of your customers needs
  • Building a product for developers and the importance of understanding your audience
  • Soliciting feedback from customers from different channels


Connecting with Ben

Stuart Balcombe
Hello and welcome to the Customer Conversations podcast. Today, I'm excited to be joined by Ben Orenstein. Ben is the CEO and co-founder of Tuple, the best pair programming app for remote teams. He's also the host of one of my favorite podcasts, the Art of Product, former Thoughtboter and the creator of several educational products for Rails developers. Ben, thanks so much for joining me.

Ben Orenstein
Yeah, my pleasure. Happy to be here.

Stuart Balcombe
I am super excited for this conversation. As I mentioned in the intro there, I'm a long longtime listener of the Art of Product. So I feel like I have a pretty good handle on the things that you've been up to. But maybe we can start out, for those who don't know you, if you can just share what Tuple is and, sort of, how you came to be working on Tuple.

Ben Orenstein
Sure. Tuple is, like you said in the intro, it's an app for doing remote pair programming. Currently on macOS only. But it's a tool that we created because we wanted it to exist. I asked some friends of mine, when I started doing this, like, "Hey, what do you use for remote pairing?" And back then, I think, that the best answer someone had was like Skype or like, I think, Slack calls, some people said... But no one liked their answer. No one was like, "Oh, I use X and it's really great." It was always kind of like, "Well, I get by with this," and it felt like an opportunity.

Ben Orenstein
It was like, "All right. I keep hearing this over and over. I want this thing, it seems like other people want this thing and there doesn't seem to be a good answer." I'm not sure that that kind of opportunity happens that much in life, and I felt like I would kind of like kick myself if I didn't at least take a shot at it. Fortunately, I was able to convince two awesome co-founders to do this at the same time with me and it's gone really well.

Stuart Balcombe
Yeah. I feel like there's a... I know, sort of, the founding story of Tuple. Screenhero was around sort of back in the day and then there's, obviously, with everything going on in the world right now, there's been a lot of change which has sort of pushed people to need a product like Tuple, being remote. How would you say, like the sort of... How's that journey been, from this is just a little idea that seems to exist from the people that I've spoken to, to sort of almost now it's like a globally needed idea that's top of mind?

Ben Orenstein
I mean, it's been pretty awesome. We've been very fortunate. So we happened to be paddling in the right direction and had enough momentum that when this giant wave appeared, we were swept up into it, and we're the beneficiaries of it. So that was not intentional, exactly. We had this theory, when we started the company that, okay, there's probably going to be more developers every year. And more of those developers are going to be going remote. There's already a movement of increased remote work before all this happened. But I was kind of expecting it to be this slow, steady, like, okay, maybe it's going to be 1% of the market, and then one and a half, and then two. And that actually was working fine. We were on a, quite a nice growth trajectory before COVID happened. And March of this year was just kind of like a crazy explosion of all that.

The good news is that we have been kind of like laying that foundation and getting going and had some momentum, and so as people started looking around and asking each other, "Hey, what are you using?" Some people said, "Hey, I use Tuple and I like it." As opposed to, "I use X, and I'm getting by."

So I don't know that you could... I mean, it's tough to imagine that kind of nicer thing to happen, at least from a startup perspective, not for the world, obviously. But if you're working on a business and suddenly your potential share of the market goes from like a tiny, single digit percentage to like almost everyone in basically a week or two, I mean, it's kind of a crazy event that has happened.

Stuart Balcombe
Yeah. I know you've spoken about this a little bit on the Art of Project podcast, which is my frame of reference for everything, with what you're working on. But how has that sort of changed operationally? Like you said, you were sort of going along on this nice growth trajectory, which is great for any new company, right? But what has changed internally as sort of as a result of everything getting sort of crazy since March? What's sort of the biggest unexpected thing, I guess?

Ben Orenstein
I guess, so the biggest change is kind of to our mindset maybe, which is... So when we started the company, like one of my co-founders had previously had a venture backed, created, started a venture back startup that got acquired and he had some negative experiences as part of that, that he wasn't keen to repeat. So he was like, "We're going to... I'm not interested in raising money. We're all on board with that." And so like, we kind of also embraced the rest of the bootstrapper idea in our heads, which was like, we're going to grow slowly and steadily. It's going to be very calm. It's going to be just the three of us for a long time. Like I was like, let's see how much revenue we can do with like not hiring a single person. And I was like, I had this dream of this incredibly simple lean operation.

And our business basically like quadrupled in a couple of months in over like March, April, May. Several parts of the company kind of got overwhelmed at once. Like we were overwhelmed in support. We were overwhelmed in sales. Were overwhelmed in infrastructure. And so there was like a really... It was a stressful few months as we're like scrambling. Like it was like suddenly, we were like venture scale growth all of a sudden, and we had not been planning for it or expecting it, or even like trying for it or wanting it, really.

And so we had to kind of... It changed our mindset. We're like, "Okay, we basically have to make some changes. And we also kind of have to hire." Like rather than sneaking up on us like slowly kind of hitting the point where we reach the edge of what we can do with three people, it was just like two weeks went by and like, "Okay, we need to hire. Like two weeks ago, we didn't need to, and now we do."

So we've almost been playing catch-up since then, which is like, okay, now that things are stabilized and things are going well, we've hired a number of people since then, and the opportunity is now so much bigger than it was. And we're able to have such an impact on the world and help people. And like, we get these messages from people saying like, "You're making remote work possible for me and sustainable. And I feel connected to my coworkers," and it's like, "Wow, we're doing good things for the world." So I think now we're kind of thinking a little bit more ambitiously than before. The appeal is less like, "Wow, I wonder if we can get this thing to 15K a month and then we can all pay our rent and now it's more like, "All right, there's a lot we can do here. What should we do now?"

Stuart Balcombe
Yeah. It's interesting that sort of, I guess, that inflection point, right? It was sort of forced upon you rather than a... It's typically a conscious decision to say, "Okay, we're going to go seek out funding," right? And that has an impact, but yeah, that sort of external stimulator is pretty abnormal, I guess. How has that impacted your role as a CEO, like going from... and also sort of going from before, I guess, more of an individual contributor, like writing code and like actually being in the day to day of... and I guess at the sort of early days with Tuple, that's, I'm sure much more the case than it is today.

Ben Orenstein
Yes. It's definitely changed my day to day a lot, for sure. I am like the 10,000,000th person to discover this, I suppose, but it's really great to hire really good people to work on your company. There is just a ton of leverage. And like finding someone who's really good to work on the company is better and more efficient than me doing something in the company most of the time.

And so not a new insight at all, but was something that I sort of knew intellectually, but hadn't felt viscerally. And then we hired our first full time engineer and a salesperson, and it was like, our lives got better instantly. And it was like, "Oh, okay. Yes. All right. Now, we have all this new knowledge on the team and we have more bandwidth and we can tackle new projects. And there's a new sense of excitement and support." And it was just like a light bulb went off. It's like, "Oh, I get it. That's why every CEO is focused on hiring as their main thing, is because it works really well." So that's me now, basically.

Stuart Balcombe
Gotcha. Gotcha. And I'm sure that there's been some sort of other sort of ripple effects of that, too. Right? I know one thing that I found particularly interesting sort of listening to the evolution of people on the podcast, it was sort of your role in sales and some of the initially sort of not particularly wanting to do like enterprise sales or sort of spend time on things that are sort of enterprise-y in nature. How was your sort of perspective on that shifted? I know that's something that you spend a lot of time sort of trying to be deliberate about. How's the company has changed? Like how has that sort of your view on that changed?

Ben Orenstein
So in the beginning, I fought it. So I'm a developer. Inefficiencies of process hurt me at a deep level. So when I would come across these enterprise sales processes that our prospects wanted us to go through, I would be like, "This is so inefficient. This is terrible. We've got to do better than this." And I would try to like push people into like these things that I was inventing. And like I was trying to like make it... I was trying to make it into what I wanted it to be. And some of that was like a little successful, but mostly not. It was like fighting this incredible institutional inertia.

So I, eventually, was like maybe the answer here is like, we should just do the enterprise sales process because it has like buckets of money at the end of it and cool logos to put on the website, but maybe I shouldn't do it. It was like, duh. Yeah. Right? Like hire a sales person. This is what everyone else does. It was like, "Oh, okay, cool."

So it was actually great when there was too many sales deals for me to deal with myself, because then I could sort of just be like, "Okay, we need to hire somebody." And then we did. And it was like, just immediately better. It was like, "Oh, we're going to still do these things because they're worth doing overall, but they're not the best use of my time. And now we can get both. We get my time back and we're going to still do these deals. Great. Amazing." Duh. That's how, I guess, that's welcome to business.

Stuart Balcombe
Yeah. Any insights that you were sort of not expecting, or that you've run into as you've gone through that sort of hiring process? Because obviously, hiring in itself is a whole... that's a whole skill set, right?

Ben Orenstein
It is. I'm still learning it. I think I have a lot to learn there, actually. This is what I like about running a company, is that my job is changing. Like, that's actually what I like. My last full time gig was like a longterm thing was at thoughtbot. And I worked there for seven years and I had like three or four positions almost during my tenure there, which is perfect, because it was like every two years or so, I would get kind of bored. I'd be like, "All right. I feel like I got the gist of this. I want a new thing to learn." I enjoy the sort of chaotic early days and like figuring out a brand new thing. And then once I feel like I got the gist, I start to get a little bit not interested in it.

So I am now on the like learn how to hire people train. And I don't have a ton of insight to share yet, but maybe in some number of months or years, I'll be better at this. Although I'll tell you, like the best shortcut for this, I keep finding over and over, is having friends that are a bit ahead of you and that are smart and have experience here. So I'm just kind of constantly reaching out to people that I respect and like, and companies that I think are doing great things. And I say like, "Hey, we're facing this challenge. Do you have any thoughts?" And a surprising number of people are just willing to like, just straight up be like, "Here's some distilled advice from my years of doing this. Here's a shortcut." It's truly wonderful.

Stuart Balcombe
Yeah. It is amazing how... I'm continually surprised by how willing people are to help who seemingly are in like much higher or further along positions and like shouldn't have time, right, but-

Ben Orenstein
Yep, totally. We have a list of... so this is something I recommend for anyone that is doing... I mean, maybe for anyone in the world, but like, especially if you have a business. Like we have a list of advisors. And so like, I have reached out to a handful of entrepreneurs that I respect a lot and just said like, "Hey, is it cool if I ping you the occasional question or send you the occasional update about Tuple and just get your thoughts on it? No need to respond if you don't want to, or just archive the email if you're not interested in it." And my uptake rate on that has been a hundred percent, so far.

And I think you could do this for a lot of things. I think you could do it for being a better programmer, for getting better at sales. I think kind of whatever you wanted to, you could probably get yourself an advisory board and it's such just a huge, huge asset.

Stuart Balcombe
Yeah. And with, too, that's sort of totally... like there's no equity involved, or there's no... Like that's just totally voluntary. Just, you like to be honest.

Ben Orenstein
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Just they just want to help. And it's also, it's, I think, so I can speak from the entrepreneurial point, at least, it's kind of fun to offer advice. You don't have to do the work. You just get to like, be like, "Here's my wisdom and I sound smart and maybe it helps you, and maybe it doesn't, whatever." I mean that in a nice way, of course. These people are giving us great advice, but it's not a huge burden. And I think it's actually really fun to dive into someone else's business quickly, where it's like, here's the thing that's going on with us. Ooh, interesting. I've seen the numbers of someone else's business. It's kind of cool." It's almost like slightly elicit. You're getting like the secret information and then like, they want your advice on how to do this thing. It's like, oh, it's just, it's cool. It's fun.

It's kind of not a huge thing to ask people. I think it's a little bit enjoyable. But yeah, I'm surprised at... Even given that, I'm still surprised. I, the other day, asked a kind of like thorny compensation question to our advisors and got back multi-page emails from basically everyone with like lots of in-depth thoughts. It's like, wow, what an incredible gift this is.

Stuart Balcombe
Yeah. It sounds like it's such an amazing resource that it... I mean, all this knowledge exists in the world, right? Like people have had experiences or have experienced sort of similar things, at least, to what you're experiencing. But for them to distill that all down is incredibly valuable.

So on the topic of feedback and of learning, one thing that I am always curious about, and that's sort of the area that I'm in, I guess, is some customer discovery and understanding what your customers need are currently challenged by, and I know you've talked about this on the podcast as well about sort of being part of the Stripe beta with the portal and sort of how you're capturing feedback in Tuple, as you've scaled, have you sort of, and I'm sure as you've gone from having sort of a handful of customers who you know everybody's name to a huge user list where you don't know everybody's name, how have you sort of found, or what sort of ways have you employed to sort of try to keep sort of the finger on the pulse of what people are actually saying, what's actually important to sort of people using the product?

Ben Orenstein
I think of it kind of like setting lots of little traps that collect customer feedback. And so we have a bunch of them set out in various places, and they all kind of feed back into like our Help Scout instance. But it's like one example is after each call on Tuple, we pop up a little feedback box. Like how was the call, one through five? And there's a little feedback form as well. And it's like, if something went poorly, like tell us what happened. Was there a bug? Did you see something? Did you figure out how to like reproduce this thing or something?

So we have like a steady stream of call feedback coming in, and we use the aggregate versions of... Like, we use the individual ones of that as like bug reports. We use the aggregates as a quality score for how we're doing.

We also just ask people like, after you've done 10 calls, we send a little survey out and ask things like, "What's good about Tuple that we shouldn't screw up? What would you love to see us add, change, remove, improve? Any little annoyances you have with the app that you wish we'd fixed? Anything else you want to tell us?" That kind of thing.

And we've had a number of these throughout the life of the product. We're kind of often tinkering with like, what do we ask? What do we ask and when? And where does the feedback show up and all that. And we get response... Oh, we also send an email after your first call. Like, how did the first call go? Any bugs report? Anything you want to tell us about? I just kind of think of, like, we have all these somewhat passive places that people could kind of like touch and go, "Oh, here's a little chance to send something back to the team." And then I basically just read everything that comes in through that, and try to distill it down to, "Okay, we should do X, Y, Z."

Stuart Balcombe
Gotcha. You mentioned that's all coming back into Help Scout, just sort of support ticket tools. You have it all in one place. It's-

Ben Orenstein
Just about. Some of it goes into Typeform, but those just generate an email. It's next to the Help Scout ticket in my inbox. So it's kind of the, sort of a similar thing.

Stuart Balcombe
Right? Yeah. How sort of do you close, or do you close the loop on those things? Right? Like you mentioned, some of those become bug reports and issues and some of them is sort of, I'm sure much more sort of high level than that.

Ben Orenstein
We don't do an amazing job of that. We could do better. So I know there are companies... There are ways to like tag somebody. They are unhappy with how the webcam works and then we could reach out later and be like, "Hey, we just made the webcam work better." Or like, "Hey, can I ask you some questions that we're about to work on the webcam?"

We've done some of that and people totally appreciate it. It's the great thing. Like, we've gotten away from it a bit as like the amount of feedback and the number of users has gotten way higher, but I don't actually think that's a good thing. It would be good for us to go back to more of that because it always blows people's minds when you say, "Hey, you complained about this and we just shipped it fixed. Like, "Oh, awesome. Thanks for following up." No one is sad to hear that. So I wish we did better there, honestly.

Stuart Balcombe
Yeah. That's an interesting point. In the world of SaaS, I guess, and trying to make everything scalable and automated and passive, would be it's often the things that don't scale very well or incredibly personal that get the biggest results or the biggest-

Ben Orenstein
Yeah. As a customer, you're not interested in your provider's scantling, like your vendors. You don't care about them serving thousands of other people. You want them to be awesome to you.

Stuart Balcombe
Right. Right. Do you think that there's any... And I know you created products and courses and things for developers previously to Tuple. Do you think there's something unique about developers as a market? Is there something that you particularly like about that market? Could you build a product for anybody else or would you build a product for anybody else?

Ben Orenstein
I probably wouldn't... I mean, it would have been probably a mistake for me to build a product for someone else or a different group of people given that I had spent so long building up an audience of developers. So much, I think, of Tuple's early success was due to the fact that I was able to bring in so many people and get Tuple in front of so many developers quickly, and they trusted that it was going to be good, and they were interested and they wanted to follow along the story, and they felt connected to our success.

In the early days, I remember someone signing up and saying, "I'm not really going to use this, but I just want to support you, because I've learned so much from you over the years. And like we routinely get bug reports or feedback and say like, "Oh, Ben, I loved your video, like your conference talk on Vim or something from 2007 or something. Super psyched to be using Tuple now." There's still, I think, a contribution of just like my audience and the things I did many years ago that are helping us as kind of a tailwind.

So I'm glad I leveraged that. I think that was really important. As far as there being unique things about developers, there's probably a hundred things that I can't tease out because it's all like transparent to me now. Like I'm part of it. And so it's like, it's just like the water I'm swimming in. I don't think about, well, this is how you have to market to developers or talk to them or whatnot.

But as far as things I do like, there's a bunch. Probably the biggest thing is just that we can nerd out with them. Actually a big one, they give, for the most part, give great bug reports. Like a lot of times, they'll be like, "Oh, like I saw problem, but I'm pretty sure it's that my network connection was having a lot of packet loss because I'm far away from the router" and it's like they have like sort of pre-solved their own problem, or they'll say, "I've reproduced that thing with the sound bug. And it turns out if I do this and this and this, it goes away." And it's like, "Ooh, this is super useful." So that's been like particularly pleasurable.

Stuart Balcombe
Yeah. I'm sure that sort of helps fast track that loop, right, and which ultimately means you end up with a better product and happier customers, right, because you can fix everything quicker.

Ben Orenstein
Yep. At least in theory.

Stuart Balcombe
Right. Right. So you talked a little bit there about sort of the... in the very beginning, you were able to bring a lot of, sort of, you brought your existing audience, right, because there was some crossover with things you've worked on previously. In terms of marketing Tuple, which I think is often for people who are starting a business, that's often one of the last things that they think about, right, is how to get, how to get the product that I just built, which is awesome in front of enough people that it's actually impactful, to get people using the product and ultimately paying for it.

I know you started out with some content. You had the pairing guide and also you brought your own audience, too. What's had the biggest impact, would you say, on sort of... has your, like, the channels which are bringing you customers, has that changed over time? Like what's sort of been the biggest learning on that side of things?

Ben Orenstein
I don't know. It's weird. I think, I'm good at the aggregate task of like building an audience, and I'm not great, or I haven't been diligent, I guess, about like breaking down, like, okay, where are people actually hearing about us? Which of these many channels that I work on simultaneously is actually working best and like, where should we double down? Again, not that that's good. That's just kind of the reality.

We get a lot of buzz on Twitter. Like so many people that are hitting our website are coming from Twitter. We get a lot of word of mouth. I think developers actually are really... That's, I think, one benefit of the audience, is like developers like to talk about tools they're using that are good, and they like to share them.

Also, Tuple's kind of inherently viral in that it's a thing that connects two people. And so like, if you want to use it with someone else, you invite them to it. And like, now we have another person who might invite other people.

So between the existing audience and like me just kind of doing a bunch of things, like talks, like this podcast, like my own podcast, like blog posts, like the pairing guide, like coming with an existing audience, it has just been enough and has gotten enough of like a flywheel started that we definitely have generated kind of a lot of buzz and people seem to have heard of us.

I mean, it's not a great answer. Like I feel kind of guilty about it, where it's not like, I think, I can kind of go recommend other people do exactly. It's kind of like this seems to have worked for us. And we're fortunate that way. It's not the way, or it's not even a great way, perhaps.

Stuart Balcombe
Yeah. It's interesting. Everybody that I talked to about attribution always has some complaint about... Like attribution's hard, period, and it's also never simple, right? Even if you know the final UTM parameter that somebody used to sign up for your... They may have heard about it. They may have known you, like about you and your audience or you and your work for years.

Ben Orenstein
Yeah.

Stuart Balcombe
Yeah. So one thing that I sort of, to that end of being in, swimming in the same water as developers, you mentioned that you have all these, all the feedback sort of mousetraps, I guess, that feed back into Help Scout. How much time do you spend talking to customers outside of those mouse straps? And I guess, there's probably a... Actually, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I'm assuming there's a good amount of talking to developers, which you wouldn't necessarily call customer research.

Ben Orenstein
Probably not enough. I do some calls with customers. I do some things just to like talk about potential features or like hear how they feel about the app. Whenever someone's like, "Hey, I use Tuple. It's great." I'm like, "Great, but what could be better?" And so I'm trying to kind of always solicit feedback from people like wherever it's coming in.

Like I joined a private Slack the other day and someone's like, "Hey, we use Tuple." I was like, "Cool, what do you wish it could do better? Like where are we falling down?" I try to be like always gathering that, but this is actually a thing I'd like to hire someone to do more rigorously and more frequently, is literally just like do Tuple calls with customers and like reach out to them and like gather how they're feeling and what they want or watch them use the product and see where things are falling apart or that kind of thing. I think that's a kind of the... talking to users is sort of the answer. It's like, if there's one holy grail, it's probably that. And so we could be doing more.

Stuart Balcombe
Interesting. Yeah. So to sort of start to wrap things up here, for people who are maybe sort of in your position to... Tuple's two, now?

Ben Orenstein
Yeah. Yeah.

Stuart Balcombe
Yeah. For people who are sort of in that position of thinking about starting something new, they maybe think they've identified a problem, they have an idea, what's been sort of the biggest unexpected learning sort of from that point to today? Like, what's the thing that you... And I know you started plenty of other things previously. What's the thing that you've learned with this that was maybe you thought you knew would be, or thought would be different?

Ben Orenstein
I don't know why I didn't realize this, but in the early days, we thought our ideal customer was going to be like a freelancer. And so like when we were building the initial version of Tuple, we were picturing single developers using it with clients. And then, so many of our early customers were teams of developers paring amongst themselves. Duh. Like that sort of makes a lot more sense. It was like, "Oh yeah, you could sell one license to a freelancer and they could use it with all their customers, or you could sell like 20 to actually what amounts to a small team of developers," like 20 is nothing in the business world, "and make a lot more money, and it's a lot simpler, and you can sort of simplify things down."

So we were shocked. I was shocked to discover that I was shocked that our ideal customer was, of course, turned out to be like teams of developers that already existed and already had relationships with each other.

Stuart Balcombe
Yeah. I mean, it seems so obvious now, right? But-

Ben Orenstein
Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Stuart Balcombe
But I guess that sort of also, in making that, how painful was making that switch in... Because obviously, it has some benefit beyond just selling to companies with a lot of money.

Ben Orenstein
Yeah. It was kind of painful, actually, because we ended up with this kind of crazy pricing/feature situation where like we had like a freelancer plan for freelancers, and then we had like a team plan for non-freelancers. And people had no idea how that worked. We did like a bad job of explaining what the differences were and what the restrictions were and could you go from one to the other and why would you, and when would you, and how could you, and it was just this like kind of stupidly complicated thing as we try to support both models while keeping them kind of distinct in some ways.

And so now, we just like have gotten rid of that freelancer plan. It turns out freelancers are wonderful humans. I love them very much. They're terrible customers in a way in that like, they're a single license. They have way more churn. They don't tend to have as many people to pair with. They don't have a pairing habit with people. They tend to get customers and then sometimes lose them. It's just like almost everything... Although, they do kind of pair promiscuously. So it's kind of nice for them to like expose Tuple to lots of people, but in terms of building like a business, it's just not the best target market for us.

So slowly unwinding that and making it... focusing our efforts on teams was tricky. And honestly, there's still vestiges of like Booleans for like freelancers and stuff in the database that we're working on in pulling out. But yeah, we're getting there.

Stuart Balcombe
Gotcha. So we talked a lot about sort of the journey from the step of the founding of Tuple to now sort of all the huge changes that have happened, especially in the last sort of four, five months or so. Where do you see... And I know we talked about initially it started out with this goal for it to be a small, calm company, fully bootstrapped. Where do you see Tuple in three years, five years? Like, is it a business that you plan to just keep running and run forever, because it's fun? What's the next sort of days, I guess, for Tuple?

Ben Orenstein
I don't know exactly. We're not building this to sell it, by any means. We're interested in... The goal is not like let's grow this to a certain point and then try to like have a big exit. It doesn't interest me very much. At the same time, knowing myself, I thrive on new challenges. So if we got to the point where the company stopped growing, or like the challenges stopped changing, it will be hard for me to stay excited about it. So I kind of feel like what I'm hoping is that it just keeps growing and keeps being interesting and new and different each month, quarter, year. And that way, it just remains interesting and stimulating to work on. And we have this like fun thing to go do all the time.

And so hopefully, there's always a next phase. And like, we're kind of always pushing into new hard stuff that forces me to learn things. So far, it seems like that's like a pretty reasonable outcome, like a pretty likely outcome. There's just business is really complicated. Making a software company has a lot of pieces. And it looks like I'm just going to kind of always be trying to optimize something and learn something. And so it's looking pretty promising that this could be like my longterm thing.

Stuart Balcombe
Awesome. For people who want to find out more about Tuple, join your audience, where should they go to check that out and connect with you?

Ben Orenstein
Yeah. Tuple.app, is our website. If you want to get like hot takes and stuff, I'm @r00k on Twitter. Art of Product podcast is my podcast, if you want kind of the weekly updates of what it's like running a bootstrapped company. Also my cohost, Derrick, is running his own bootstrap company. So we've got two different perspectives there that maybe are interesting to you. And also, by the way, we're trying to hire a webrtc engineer. So if you are fairly C++ fluent, ideally have a bunch of webrtc experience, but maybe you're even just interested in it, check out our website and check out that job description, because we're trying to hire for this position and it's hard to find.

Stuart Balcombe
Awesome. Well, thanks so much for doing this. Really enjoyed it. And yeah, I really appreciate it.

Ben Orenstein
Yeah, my pleasure. Thanks for having me on.

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